Day 37
Yahweh... Proclaiming... The Name... #7
In Exodus 34:5-6 we have a signature passage of revelatory import.
Notice how the One True God... not only declares His Name... but here declares His Name... THREE TIMES in succession... to the one man, Moses...
Exodus 34:5-6
The Lord came down in a cloud, stood with him there, and proclaimed [His] name Yahweh. 6 Then the Lord passed in front of him and proclaimed: Yahweh-Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth...
(HCSB)
... and through the hand of this one man... reveals His Triune existence... Three in One... to all of humanity.
Yahweh... Yahweh... Yahweh.
Hallelujah!
xtnyoda, shalomed
Labels: God's name, Yahweh
posted by XtnYoda at 11:35 AM
32 Comments:
It says so in the bible so it must be true! Do you have any real evidence for this Yahewah god? Rather than Allah or Pan or Thor or Zeus or Ra or .......
Hey Philip... thanks for stopping by!
I stopped by your blog site and took a quick peek... I like it.
Intellectual honesty is of a pretty high premium these days... and I appreciate that you are being honest with your questioning.
Just for fun... not poking fun... I would answer your question with a simple biblical response... the only way to "prove" the existence of "God" is for him to reveal himself to you personally... so until then I don't think any logical construct is going to convince you. (I prefer "himself" to say... "it"... I recognize that God being a "spirit" that it is awkward attributing anthropogenic qualities to... him.)
Thanks for stopping by and you are more than welcome to come by and dust-up we Xtns all you desire!
God Bless
Hi
I don't see the point of biblical responses. Have you seen Angie the Anti-Theist's site? She was in a cult for many years and broke free. She is the shining star of the fringe at the moment. Then there is K-rina, the Roumanian. As for god appearing to you, I'm afraid you are deluded.
Sorry.
Hehe - Shining star of the fringe. I like that :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngieAntiTheist
And great to have you stop by Angie!
Just a small point of clarification... to "reveal" was not implied to "appear" as in seeing God.
I'm sorry if I confused you on that.. it is more of a revealing in one's heart.
God Bless.
Hi XtnYoda (funny, since I wasn't allowed to watch Return of the Jedi since Yoda was very eastern-religion as a Christian girl)
Is this "revealing" sensation you describe externally (or even internally) discernible from dreams, imagination, or chemical reactions (such as being more likely to experience "a vision" after prolonged fasting)? What makes your inner conviction or non-visible revelation distinct from another religion or from other thoughts or sensations?
Hey again Angie!
Great question... and... I have escaped from the "everything has to fit my notions" way of thinking... therefore I use the "Yoda" thing for fun... my wife and I raised 3 children and they'll teach you a lot about what is and is not significant!
On the "revealing" thing... on really thinking about your question and exactly what the "revealing" is... I think I would describe it more of an experience of sensing "emptiness" than anything else.
Certainly not a vision or voices or anything like that... just starts with a gnawing emptiness that sort of demands attention... difficult to ignore.
God Bless
...and I don't mean that sarcastically... if you wish I won't say it anymore should you ever drop in again... or me drop by your site.
XtnYoda - Yes, having my son definitely shifted a lot of my thinking, especially around god (There is no way my son was born with a sinful nature, guilty of original sin, or deserving of hell & death. Period.)
I would still ask, how is that gnawing sensation distinct from hunger or loneliness or discontentment? Or how is it different from the experiences of Muslims or Hindus or atheists? I suppose what I'm really asking is, what leads you to interpret this sensation as being god revealing himself to you? (Do you think you would have come up with it on your own w/out religious instruction?)
May the Dryer Gnome be merciful & leave you at least one full pair. :D
Angie...
I am going to have to go do some husband things so I'll be off the computer for probably the rest of the day... but I'll respond soon... probably tomorrow.
blessings.
chuck
Angie: "...what leads you to interpret this sensation as being god revealing himself to you? (Do you think you would have come up with it on your own w/out religious instruction?)"
I didn't grow up as a child in a Christian home... rather a very dysfunctional family... finally ended up in a single parent situation... which was a relief.
My first experience with church I was about 5... I cut the head off the donkey they had me cutting out... I was horrified and prepared for the worst... the lady instead said, "Oh that's OK Chuck... what a great job you did!"
Next time I was around 9 in a different state etc. The people smiled... I felt they cared... I was not used to that... there was joy.
That's what caused that sense of emptiness or longing inside of me as I've thought about your question this evening. It was what I felt from those two simple churches that make me feel an emptiness... realizing there was something more than what I had known before... I think.
Thanks for asking... it has been a precious time of searching and remembering for me.
Thanks for answering. I grew up in a Christian dysfunctional home, so the 2 are entwined in my case. I can identify though with that sad feeling of longing the neglected kid I used to be felt. Again, respectfully, I would ask why you conclude that feeling is the Lord (specifically the Christian one of your own understanding) and not simply... I don't know, I suppose an abused kid looking for something better? I don't know the specifics of your story, but I guess I'll tell you some of mine.
I was pretty much abused my entire life, by family & then husband, then took care of myself with the help of a lesbian friend from church and a few others, some Christian & some Muslim & maybe even a closeted atheist :) When I met my boyfriend, I had never experienced someone loving me unconditionally before, and I still have a hard time understanding it at times. I remember wishing God felt that way about me, but that sense of longing was never really fulfilled as a believer.
I don't find I have that same kind of longing/sadness now, although I do still battle with chemical depression. Best wishes for you & your family :)
Oh & I used the phrase "religious instruction" rather than indoctrination intentionally. People don't have to be brainwashed into a religion (although it sure helps!) I simply mean, if no one had told you about Christianity, or you had never read a Bible, do you think that you could/would have interpreted the sensation you described as being the *Christian* god of the Bible? (If you'd been born & raised in a Muslim majority nation, do you think you might have considered that feeling to be from Allah instead of Jehovah?)
My story was in a way the result of my father's past... he was an "illegitimate" child born in 1930. Born with very "religious" relatives who called him the "little bastard" when he was a child growing up... to his face. He hates Christianity... that's why we were never in church.
His hurts grew into abusing himself through alcohol... etc... and abusing.
Thanks for sharing from yours.
I really don't know about the Islam/other religious tradition question to be frank? I would think that the other traditions offer "community" which most humans obviously desire... we are definitely "social" beings.
The one jumping off point of Christianity from the others is the difference between "grace" and "law" of course. Others have a set of laws/rules to follow to "gain" acceptance... in true Christianity, Christ kept the "law" for us... and was the sacrifice instead of us making the sacrifices... but I'll stop there lest I bore you... I suspect you've heard it all before. :-)
By the way... I am really glad you "broke" away from those abusive relationships! Congratulations! I know it takes a lot of courage!
Blessing to you and your son!
Hi XtnYoda and Angie
I understood 'appearing' to be something other than calling in for a cup of tea! Following on from Angie's point, I wonder how many believers have been visited by a different god to the one they believed to be the 'one true god'? Or do all the gods have a pact that they won't poach?
It seems to me that us humans are still evolving and part of the price we pay for our unique view of the universe and our self-awareness, is a need to make sense of it all. It is as if we are hard-wired to look externally for meaning and science is just now beginning to impact on religion and the 'god of the gaps'
It is impossible for some people to acknowledge that we are here by chance. They will twist and turn the meaning of their faith to make it fit and will then close the door completely on logic and reason.
How life came into being is still a mystery but it doesn't necessitate a god who tricked the first woman with a snake and then drowned 99.999% of all living things because he got it wrong.
I don't see anything bad about spirituality or a search for meaning but 'off the shelf' religion makes me so angry.
Regards
Phil.
Thank you two for your considerate discussion... that is a good starting point.
There is no mistake that Christianity has had her share of mistakes and abuses... no mistake!!!
The other side of the picture that very few are aware of is the immense slaughter of humanity during the past century by atheistic governments. The University of Hawaii has an interesting prof who has done and published extensive research on this topic. Following are some of his conclusions:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/
IMPORTANT NOTE: Among all the democide estimates appearing on this website, some have been revised upward. I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000. And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000. Details here.
I have changed my estimate for colonial democide from 870,000 to an additional 50,000,000. Details here.
Thus, the new world total: old total 1900-1999 = 174,000,000. New World total = 174,000,000 + 38,000,000 (new for China) + 50,000,000 (new for Colonies) = 262,000,000.
Just to give perspective on this incredible murder by government, if all these bodies were laid head to toe, with the average height being 5', then they would circle the earth ten times. Also, this democide murdered 6 times more people than died in combat in all the foreign and internal wars of the century. Finally, given popular estimates of the dead in a major nuclear war, this total democide is as though such a war did occur, but with its dead spread over a century.
That is an astounding number... 262,000,000 (262 million) souls killed in just the last century.
I know we don't hear or read that number thrown around a lot.
Part of the number is of course Christians who have been killed by atheistic governments... example Russia and China...
Russia... estimated at perhaps 60,000,000 Killed by Stalin and around the same by Mao in China... Christians.
God Bless you on your journeys as you seek for truth and meaning in life. I will be remembering you with an earnest heart.
chuck
ps. stop by anytime, I will look forward to the visit.
Hi Chuck
Not really sure where you are going with the atheist genocide thing. Others have made the point and it's a little more complex than adding up death tolls by religion (or lack of).
Your god is all powerful. he could make every bullet, shell, mine, grenade in the world, cease to work. That would raise a few eyebrows and perhaps change the course of the world in the process, along with saving a good few lives.
He could cause the eighty nine year-old man to die of natural causes in his sleep the night before he crashes into a mother and toddler, killing the toddler and himself outright, as happened several miles from me today.
I still don't understand what your god is supposed to do, apart from the odd revelation and ansewring of prayers to people who really are brainwashed (sorry replace that with 'truly believe').
I hope that one day you will be able to see beyond the houses in your eye. Logic and reason are beautiful things.
Regards
Phil.
Hey Phil.
Seriously... do you really want a god that... exerts absolute control over every event? That would include your thoughts... words... actions... of every person/thing in the universe?
I think I would hate a god like that?
Hi Chuck
If I had belief, I would want my god to do something, sometimes, anything to show that he was there and just a little bit omnipotent.
Your god does nothing except make his presence known to you and Angie has already challenged you on that one that it might not really be your own personal god but your imagination.
If he didn't exist, would anyone really notice?
Cheers
Phil.
Hey Phil!
Yes, I think that if God didn't exist folks would certainly notice... uh... welllll... there wouldn't be folks if God didn't exist... so I guess you have a point there... no one would notice!
:-)
Oh... and the point the other day about atheists killing folks by the millions in the last century... you don't see any relevance or application? Really?
Atheists and their governments in the last century slaughtered more humans than in all of other recorded human history combined... certainly many more than Christians have killed in the entire history of Christianity. (By the way, we are usually better at killing each other than we are at killing non-Christians.)
Now I'm not on any crusade against atheists... have many that are very good friends actually... I'm just not convinced that atheism offers a plateau that reaches to some grand plateau that is much nobler than Christianity... which it seems to me you are presenting?
Guess I'm just dealing with some reality here.
Blessings.
Hi Chuck
Dealing with some reality? How many people has god killed? If you believe that god made us then reckon you believe the bible pretty much word-for-word. One site puts the figure at 33 million. That's a lot of people smitten by god.
I don't consider myself more noble for not believing, just that I have moved on from the ridiculous teachings that we are asked to believe if we are to have faith.
My mind is free to consider anything. I don't have to make my logic fit an old book full of contradiction and metaphor and I strive to understand why people still choose to believe something that is so impossible. I find it fascinating.
Sorry
Phil.
Hey Phil,
OK... you've chosen to move on... that's OK... I'll just hang on to my "ridiculous teaching" and continue to "believe something that is so impossible"...
:-)
You are free to stop by any time as you try and understand at least this one small Christian!
God Bless,
chuck
Hi Yoda, I haven't been back in awhile, so there's much to respond to!
"The one jumping off point of Christianity from the others is the difference between "grace" and "law" of course. Others have a set of laws/rules to follow to "gain" acceptance... in true Christianity, Christ kept the "law" for us... and was the sacrifice instead of us making the sacrifices..."
I guess I would counter that if this is the case, why did Jesus say that "not one jot or tittle" of the law had gone away? As for the idea that he followed the laws himself, I would ask you to consider how he felt about the Sabbath, and how often he dishonored his mother Mary. Also, statements like "Whoever does not hate his brother" isn't a follower of me are just off-putting. I don't WANT a god who needs me to love him more than my family!
As for the "atheists commit genocide too!" thing. 1) Since atheism has no doctrine, foundation, or principles [it is simply the absence of belief in a god or gods] while several communist governments did attempt to outlaw competition (namely, religion) I do not believe "atheism" or the "cause of atheism" was their motive. I do, however, believe that god or religion or belief is the cause of religiously-motivated wars and genocides.
So, while any person - christian or atheist or neither - can murder, only the believer can murder in the name of god. Since atheism is not a philosophy, religion, etc. there is nothing to kill in the name of. A Christian can murder for personal or religious or political or economic reasons (or self-defense). An atheist can kill for those reasons, except of course the religious one. A believer may commit a crime which is not motivated by their beliefs, but I do not see how an atheist can be said to commit a crime based on their non-belief. If you disagree, please elaborate :)
Furthermore, if you think Christians really are hearing from god, why doesn't he stop them from doing horrible things? Not just genocides - although those are pretty bad, and Hitler did say in Mein Kampf that he believed he was doing the Lord's will [he was Catholic] - but rape and other crimes. Why won't god tell the pope to advise people to use condoms, thereby saving millions of lives?
I realize those last two examples were Catholic, and I don't know whether you consider them to be "true christians" or not, but my protestants commit atrocities in the name of god or simply under his neglectful eye all the time. Why doesn't he stop them, or warn someone? If you believe god intervenes at all, why doesn't he intervene to stop the rape of children in (catholic & protestant) churches around the globe?
Sorry for the delay in responding Angie... I've been busy fighting against these global warming induced snow blizzards! :-)
Angie: "A believer may commit a crime which is not motivated by their beliefs, but I do not see how an atheist can be said to commit a crime based on their non-belief. If you disagree, please elaborate :)"
You know... let's see... an atheist can't commit a crime based on their non-belief...
I find that statement... curious? If a crime... say murder... is committed because the murderer has no belief system is it any less murder? This would seem to set up a defense of having no conscience.
I find it interesting that you don't think that atheistic governments that have killed more humans in the last century than all governmental sanctioned murder in the history of humanity combined before the last century has anything to do with "atheism."
To defend atheism on the basis that it believes nothing, then to ignore the slaughter of a quarter of a billion humans by the hands of atheistic governments in the last century... most of it actually in my own life time is simply amazing to me.
I'm not trying to be demeaning to you personally... it's just the logic that I don't comprehend?
I shared with you that I experienced love through the church at around nine... that of course was a child experience. Something happened to me as a young man that taught me about the reality of God...
After high school I joined the United States Marine Corp. Then as a nineteen year old I was sent to Vietnam and served as a door gunner on marine helicopters.
One thing I saw a good deal of was death... flew many medivac missions... combat missions... I saw a lot of death and dying.
One thing that became very real to me after a lot of reflecting later was that "death" is not natural somehow. In all the universe science tells us that matter exists... it might change form... but all matter is continuous.
What got my attention is that "life" is not not that way... oh... the "matter" remains but the life is gone. That didn't make scientific sense to me as life is much more precious than "matter."
As an adult I came to the place that I don't believe that life ceases at "death."
That is when I put away childish things and began to develop my adult faith in God.
Thanks for listening!
You are a very bright young lady.
chuck
Hi Yoda. Well, of course I do have morality & ethics & belief is not required for any of those. (I've actually done a series of YouTube videos on this, if you're interested.) Let me try to explain this to you in another way.
You are an atheist regarding Zeus. You & I both do not believe he is real, or powerful, etc. even though throughout history other people have & some people do even today. Now, does your lack of belief in Zeus motivate you to do ANYTHING - good or bad? Does not believing in Zeus impact your life to the major level that *believing* in your god does? No, of course not. You ignore thousands of gods you don't believe are real everyday; I just go one god further. Yet, you choose to define me by my absence of your specific god, your specific belief. You define neither of us by our lack of belief in Shiva or Allah. So when I say, not believing in god isn't a motive to kill, that's what I mean (not anything about what other motives a person may have for killing, regardless of their belies.) I do not think you would kill for your disbelief in Ra. Am I right?
As for communist governments, well, I'm young so most of those were actually before my life. And the tally game does nothing to actually talk about what's TRUE, does it? I will say that from my minimal study of communist murderous regimes, blind obedience to the government was required, and the church/religion was seen as a threat to this totalitarian control. Not all (or even most) atheists are totalitarians. Lots of us define ourselves by our positive beliefs in things like critical thought, logic, etc. as Freethinkers (rather than just our absence of god belief atheism). Being a freethinker means embracing things like debate, free speech, critical thought, questioning authority, evidence-based view of the world, etc.
Those are concepts & ideas I believe Stalin would have purged just as readily as any religious impulses he attempted to squash. Obviously his actions were barbaric & he was insane (like Hitler the Catholic.) However, I think it is pretty obvious he was motivated by greed, megolomania, and insanity. He wanted to be supreme ruler; he wanted to be god essentially. That's not what I want or what anyone I know wants, whatever their beliefs. I do not think "I personally lack belief in a god" was Stalin's motive for his murderous policies.
True psychopaths of both the reach & insanity level of a Stalin or Hitler are rare, fortunately. So should we spend more time on them (And hey, if we're gonna, then I'm bringing in murderous popes next) or can we return to our discussion on "knowing" you are saved? :)
(part 2) Seeing death is upsetting. It's a difficult thing to grasp. I remember my mother telling me the reason death upsets us is because we are really infinite beings in finite bodies. Sounds nice enough, right? Except, why would a god make infinite beings, yet give them only a small window of opportunity to make choices or have freewill or live, and often to allow that time to be miserable and disease-ridden (or else full of tragedy, or both). when people don't figure out which of the many, many, many myths is the "right" one, they are sent to hell for eternity - right? Why create us in the first place if he knows we're going to suffer forever for finite crimes committed in the blink of an eternity? It is so unfair. To quote Gilbert & Sullivan, "Make the punishment fit the crime."
You put away childish things, and adopted faith? I think you're sentence structure is a little confused there :P I understand death can be scary or upsetting, but I don't see how deciding you're not *really* gonna die (thereby easing fears) counts as doing something grown up. Not trying to be rude, but it sounds very much like a child creating an imaginary friend to help them cope through stress and fears. (And of course, from the outside, your friend is identically invisible.)
I had some Jehovas Witnesses call round a few days ago. There is a mission a couple of streets away. The conversation ended a draw but I think I had more of the ball. It was interesting to argue religion in real time for a change.
The bottom line finally arrived at was that they needed to believe in some higher power because without that, their life would have no meaning or purpose. So they choose to hang on to a belief because their reality could not exist without it. A friend of my wife said something similar, that even if god had been presonally responsibild fot Horoshima and Nagasaki, she would still believe in him because she could not imagine having to face life on her own.
Let's face it, as a species, we have become self-aware but we still need that existential element to help define how we got here and to take culpability and fear of death away from us.
I have just stumbled across this amazing site by following Banana Man's blog ring and I would like to share it with you both; http://nothingexistsdespiteappearances.blogspot.com/?expref=next-blog
Not sure what to make of it but it needs further exploration.
I am content to know that there is no meaning to anything other than what we allocate to it. I'm me, I'm now and that's all. No god. No purpose. No sense. No one Truth.
No redemption. I am responsible to the people around me. I will have lived and died in less than a blink of an eye in this cosmos but I will live on through my childen.
Every second of my life is precious because it is all I have.
Hey again Phil and Angie! I've really enjoyed our discussion... seriously.
Now... now that we've traded the admissions that Christians have committed in history horrific atrocities out of distorted images of God... and likewise atheists have committed horrific atrocities out of feeling threatened by various groups for whatever reasons... could we therefore lay aside the inclination to accuse all Christians and all atheists for what others have done in the name of their respective belief systems? :-)
I certainly don't blame all atheists for what other atheists have done or not done in the name of atheism. Nor would I ever judge an atheist as being ignorant and somehow mentally deficient for not believing in God... so can we get past that also... tending to see Christians as being... very ignorant and backward for believing there is a God?
Could we instead discuss the actual topic at hand... whether or not there is a god... and the reasons we either do or don't believe so... without all the other chatter?
And, Angie, on the questioning authority statement you made:
Lots of us define ourselves by our positive beliefs in things like critical thought, logic, etc. as Freethinkers (rather than just our absence of god belief atheism). Being a freethinker means embracing things like debate, free speech, critical thought, questioning authority, evidence-based view of the world, etc.
... remember... I was a teen in the 60's... we invented and perfected the whole questioning of authority, etc. mantra. :-)
You can take my word for it... I haven't gotten over it. :-)
And... Phil... I haven't had time yet to check out the site you linked us too... but I will.
Kind regards.
Hi Yoda. I have a couple minor points to clarify before I can agree to move on with you :) 1. You say the Christians who committed atrocities did so out of a misunderstanding of god or his wishes. I disagree, obviously. I think that (in many cases at least) it could be argued that those behind crusades, etc. (or the horrible Westboro Baptist Cult) are following "God's word" more closely than humanitarian, liberal or even just reasonable christians.
2. You say "I'd never call your atheism delusional so don't do that to me" (er, I'm paraphrasing) And, sorry. These are not equivalent. Religion is, to me from my studies at least, man-made, and unsupported by the natural world. Belief in god is not rational, and is not arrived at by careful consideration of the data. It is arrived at by faith. I happen to think faith is foolish, at the very least.
But yes, let's get onto the question of god's existence, which after all, is our major point of contention. What evidence do you have? :)
p.s. I'm pretty sure Thomas Paine & Robert B Ingersoll were questioning authority a couple centuries before you ex-hippies!
One more thing - your theory on atheists committing atrocities 'because they felt threatened' completely ignores everything I said in my previous remarks on Stalin & Hitler. Not to bring that all back, but no - I don't think Stalin was a murderous farthead (see? trying to be censored on your blog) because he felt "threatened" by religion. Remember, many atheists in the US feel threatened (especially those of us with ovaries). Yet we are not going on murderous rampages.
Hello Angie!
In actuality we are both people of faith. Your faith is in the ability of humans to reason and use logic.
I really don't see how observing the order and wonder of the universe and coming to the conclusion that there must be a creator is in any way a lack of reason? Just because one chooses to reject the idea of a creator doesn't negate for others the logic is seeing a creative God behind such complexity.
One can say all day long that a creator doesn't make sense or meet a standard of logic... just as easily as I can say that it is logical for a God of order to create a universe of order.
By the way... you can say anything on my blog site you wish as long as I think you are a real person and not just a troll of some sort... and I do believe that you are a real person.
Thanks
Hi Yoda. Like many words in the English language, "faith" has more than one meaning. You're using two different definitions or meanings of "faith" when you say we both have it :) So let me clarify, I have faith in humanity to act as humanity does (good and bad and in between). There is sufficient, universally obvious evidence to support & justify this faith. You on the other hand, have faith in the god of the bible to exist & to perform sometimes directly in conflict with that character (you seem to expect less smiting of your god than say, Pat Robertson) despite the fact that your god is invisible and very well might not exist. It's like saying "I have faith there will be hot water in the shower" - it's not a religious or supernatural one, and it's justified by experience. It's an *expectation* not faith in the sense of say, trusting in god. It's not that I "trust" people; I just expect them to behave in ways we know people often behave in.
Now you never did answer my objections to Christ as perfect, things like his repeated breaking of laws & commandments. Instead you went off on regimes, so now that we're done with those, would you please like to address how you can claim Jesus led a sinless, blameless life to take on other's sins, when he clearly broke multiple laws (that when I break them, I get told I'm "sinning")?
Many brilliant people, particularly a few hundred years ago or more, when we did not have certain scientific explanations defined, were creationists. Prior to Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, most of the western world believed in either a literal Genesis creation (like you do?) or else they looked at the world around them *and completely rejected the idea that it came from the Bible god* even while still believing it had been created by an intelligent designer.
Even if I take for the sake of argument that the world does somehow suggest an intelligent designer, despite evidence suggesting there is no need for a god or intelligent designer to create the world, and no sign that such a god did so or even exists: For the sake of argument, I'll grant that the physical universe we know was created by some kind of intelligent designer.
There is absolutely NOTHING from that statement that then suggests that intelligent designer was a god, was a single god, was YOUR god, inspired YOUR book, etc. It's a non-sequitor or "does not follow". You can't get from A to Z without something in between. I look forward to seeing what you'll come up with :)
Sorry for the delay in responding Angie... Here are a couple of replies from me.
.... It's an *expectation* not faith in the sense of say, trusting in god. It's not that I "trust" people; I just expect them to behave in ways we know people often behave in.
Actually I think I said that you shared that you had faith is human logic and reason... that is what I was responding to. There is just as divergent a divide between human logic and reason... as there are humans... just as surly as there is a wide variety of human religions. I had 12 hours of logic studies in my undergraduate degree program, and the attempt to formulate logic into a generally accepted format is difficult to say the least. So... for us to say that we have faith in logic is just as complex as saying that we have faith in "God." In that respect I see them as being very similar.
Now you never did answer my objections to Christ as perfect, things like his repeated breaking of laws & commandments.... would you please like to address how you can claim Jesus led a sinless, blameless life to take on other's sins, when he clearly broke multiple laws (that when I break them, I get told I'm "sinning")?
Jesus never broke any of the Old Testament laws or commandments... what he did challenge and break with great gusto was the teachers interpretations, traditions and additions to the law... mainly those developed in the Jewish Talmud. He certainly challenged the "status quo" of his day and their perversion of the intent of the law... as Christ said, "God made the sabbath for man, not man for the sabbath." I greatly admire him for this aspect of his character. He questioned human tradition long before Paine. :-)
.... Even if I take for the sake of argument that the world does somehow suggest an intelligent designer, despite evidence suggesting there is no need for a god or intelligent designer to create the world, and no sign that such a god did so or even exists: For the sake of argument, I'll grant that the physical universe we know was created by some kind of intelligent designer.
There is absolutely NOTHING from that statement that then suggests that intelligent designer was a god, was a single god, was YOUR god, inspired YOUR book, etc. It's a non-sequitor or "does not follow". You can't get from A to Z without something in between. I look forward to seeing what you'll come up with :)
I will grant your point on this... there is nothing in all of the universe that demands that if there is a creator that the creator must by necessity be the God of the Christian Bible. :-)
Thank you again for your sincere reflections and thoughts... and taking the time to share them here!
chuck
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